HACKER Q&A
📣 purple-leafy

Tired of software career. What now?


I work as a fullstack developer. Mostly doing frontend.

I’m sick of the mess of tooling, of the colleagues who code these giant spaghetti messes, I’m tired of standups. I’m tired of the codebase, and I don’t care about what we are building.

But most or all I’m tired of all the minutiae. I just feel like what we are working on, and how we are doing it, is boring as hell. There’s no intellectual stimulation.

Is it time to move jobs, or time to move careers?

What other careers are good for burnt out developers?


  👤 lylejantzi3rd Accepted Answer ✓
The traditional career progressions for software developers are management, entrepreneurship, and carpentry.

👤 tjmc
I was in your position with web development and went back to uni to get a mechanical engineering degree. Started at 38 and graduated at 42. I’ve been working at it for 10 years now and specialise in designing data centres funnily enough. There’s much less ageism in “physical” engineering work which is positive but I also took a very large hit in seniority and compensation to switch. In hindsight, moving sideways into non-web development may have been a good option too but in the end it all comes down to what you find fulfilling. I’m more proud that I’ve helped build things that last like children’s hospitals and geothermal heating for local swimming pools. Sounds like taking a break first may be a good idea. Good luck!

👤 Jtsummers
> I don’t care about what we are building

I don't switch jobs much, but this is when I do. If I don't care about it, and I'm tired of the org and its practices, and the system is stuck in some way, I have to bounce. I'll just drag myself and the team/project/org down because my paycheck will only buy so much caring from me. We'll all be better off if I'm somewhere more satisfying and they fill my slot with someone who can muster more care.

The system I'm on now is important (to a lot of people, though not everyone) so my frustrations with it (tech debt, lack of proper sustainment over the years, poor project management) are things I can get past because I care enough to also tackle them and help improve all of those issues. If it was an unimportant web app, I'd probably be gone by now with the quality of this system overall.

So what qualities of a system would make you care enough to get past your other frustrations (which will exist on almost any project in almost any org with almost any team, to some extent at least).


👤 anothername12
I'm looking around for a career change. It sucks more if you have a family to provide for since SWE is low effort for high monetary gain compared to other things.

I've switched jobs a few times in the past years as a SWE/architect and even did consulting for many years. I can't seem to recapture the enjoyment I had at the beginning (back in the 2000s), it's kinda all the same now. I'm also tired of stand-ups, Groundhog Day "retros" and generally appearing to be interested. I think the whole cloud thing has taken the fun out of coding for me in the last twelve or so years.

Also, if JIRA was a face, I'd fucking punch it.

Thought of teaching maths or computing. I love that shit, but society doesn't value that as it pays so little.

Seriously thinking about becoming a paramedic, maybe a coroner/ME... time is running out though. Getting old.

Edit: Also maybe a govt. IT job. It's less, but maybe the benefits are enough to balance out. Would be cool to fix up some crumby govt. software.


👤 g4zj
I moved _back_ to Linux system administration after a few years of full-stack web development. I prefer developing software as a hobby instead of professionally, because the latter is just not enjoyable for me — at least not at any of the companies I've worked for.

👤 solardev
I feel ya – also seeking a career change, myself. Is going back to school for some other high-skill field a possibility for you? (doctors, lawyers, engineers, academia, etc.?)

Unfortunately, at least in the US, there are very few other middle-class jobs that someone can get into without a lot of formal education and/or experience. Software dev is (or at least used to be) an extreme outlier in that regard, propelling people up the economic ladder after just a few months of boot camp. I think those days are over, so if you want a comparable quality of life, I think it will take a lot of reskilling and expensive education/credentials (both in time and diplomas) :(

-------

In the meantime though, I will say this: As a software person, I've found it MUCH nicer to work for smaller to mid-sized companies vs big corporations. The salary isn't as good, but the work itself can be way more meaningful and impactful – everything you do directly impacts the product and customers, vs being a tiny cog in an insignificant wheel. None of the smaller companies I've worked for had the time, patience, or resources for endless Agile crap, for example. The codebases tended to be of mixed quality (sometimes they were homebrewed crap, other times they were OK consultant-written code) but overall, it's very much "not minutiae"... you have way more power over small-biz software like that, and there's a lot of problems to solve since your teams tend to be much smaller and your resources much fewer. All the problems are yours, but you are also empowered to make all the solutions. It's a much more satisfying feeling than "OK, I delivered 14 points this week, hope that shows up on my next review."


👤 _8L34K
"... and I don’t care about what we are building."

I find this is the main culprit behind most career dissatisfaction. Spending 8+ hours a day working to build and support something you don't care about is a recipe for being unhappy.

I've turned down jobs that were more lucrative for jobs that I felt more personally compelled to participate in, because I felt the impact of the work would be more beneficial. On tough days, it's a pretty good motivator to keep my chin up.

If you enjoy software development, then finding a more personally compelling job might be the right call. If you truly don't like the process, outside of your current environment/employer, I'd say life is too short to spend it doing something you don't enjoy.


👤 cbanek
I suggest you try to look for a new job. It doesn't cost you much (other than some time) and you can test if you think the grass is greener on the other side. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. It can give you a taste of the hiring market, which isn't very easy right now, and that can sometimes make you appreciate what you have. If you are taking interviews and everything sounds boring, maybe that will give you what you need to look at different careers and then start interviewing for those jobs?

👤 VariousPrograms
I frequently think about the Neofetch dev who archived everything on Github and just put “Have taken up farming.” It just feels like he escaped the Matrix.

https://github.com/dylanaraps


👤 CoastalCoder
I'm probably projecting here, but I wonder if you're having a bit of an existential crisis. I.e., "Why am I even doing this? It's ultimately not important."

I don't really have any advice on the matter. I just thought it might be help you locate the kernel of your discontent.


👤 AnimalMuppet
You don't sound like you're necessarily tired of software programming, you're tired of web programming. (And the things that come with it - giant spaghetti messes, standups, messy tooling. True, those can happen in any kind of programming, but they seem to be more intense in web programming.)

So you might at least consider a different kind of programming - if you can figure out a way to get hired to do that.


👤 tegiddrone
Ya, I'm in a similar situation. I burn out every 1-2 years. This time I'm finding that I may be autistic/neurodivergent. The equation is very different for me and I have to start approaching it a bit differently what I look for in a (dev) job. The advice I've read in these sort of threads don't always resonate with me; we are all different kinds of people. Some people are much more tolerant of the vast sea of grindy dev jobs. There's gotta be something more interesting out there, the harder "more interesting" problems that are worth spending 30+hrs a week on. Leave the basic stuff for the basic people and everybody can be happy.

Joining a neurodivergent support group has been great; meet some similar minds.


👤 pinewurst
I went through a similar career evolution. My escape from development went from evangelism/sales to marketing and finally product management. I actually found the business and customers interesting but could care ever less about tech cool chasing.

👤 karaterobot
If you've got a lot of front end experience, you could consider moving into design. That's what I did, and for similar reasons. You do have to pretend to care about what you're building, but that's probably going to be something you have to deal with any time you're working for someone else (or even for yourself, frankly).

The other thing to consider is just letting this industry break your spirit. Only half joking—what's true is that a lot of the problem you have is in the expectations. If you want an authentic, intellectually satisfying experience where you only work on interesting things and don't have to put up with a bunch of bullshit every day, I agree that you're in the wrong business. But, I don't know where to refer you; I don't know of a job where those things aren't a problem. And the money and benefits of this job are pretty good, and you even get to work inside, out of the rain. So, you could just put in your time and live for the other 16 hours a day when you're not working (more if you can swing it). This is how people have gotten through life for thousands of years.


👤 navyad
Into 10 years into the career, I have found that in the end its all about the people. Most of the comapanies suck making life easier for software developlemt, with useless standups, lack of documentation, proper testing, quick tasks, and on top of it micromanagement, un-productive meetings and with no foucs on culture. To me, all this energy drainging activities. It is hard to find the real joy for the job, in such cases.

👤 lordnacho
Not every software job is awful though. There's nothing about software itself that make it have to be awful.

Why not just find a different seat and see if that improves your mood? Not every place is organized the same way, not every codebase is spaghetti.


👤 topkai22
Definitely start applying. When I’ve gotten to this point in my software career before just knowing I wasn’t trapped made me feel much better.

I don’t know how deep you are in your career, but I’m at 20+ years and I’ve felt like this at least 4 or 5 times. I’ve never actually switched companies, but I’ve switched job’s within my company 3-8 times spring depending on how you want to measure a job switch.


👤 adxl
Nice rant. Go watch “Office Space” that will tell you what to do, and no it’s not burn it all down.

👤 DaoVeles
What sparks your flame? Is it viable as income? If so, try that. Sorry I couldn't be more specific.

It is odd that we treat time like it is the most worthless thing when it is the most valuable thing we have.


👤 janalsncm
I have been there before. Let me tell you, changing jobs is a lot easier than changing careers. And internal transfer is easier than changing jobs. Try an internal transfer to something with growth opportunity. If that doesn’t work, try changing jobs. I’d only change career if you have thoroughly weighed my options though.

👤 99112000
Any other creative pursuit that involves some level of engineering.

Buy a 3D printer, start some woodworking/furniture stuff, learn to weld. Dig a pond and breed koi fish.


👤 jld
Have you always felt this way about development? Or is this a newer feeling?

If it's newer, you might just be burnt out and taking a step away from the stuff you hate for a while may be enough to regain your excitement and motivation.


👤 metabagel
Consider firmware development, if you can get your foot in that door. You’d work on a product rather than a website or service. It might be a different enough experience to keep you sane.

👤 parski
I want to re-educate myself and combat climate change. Non-profit or maybe politics. Need a big pile of cash first so I can disregard the looming threat of ever lacking money.

👤 nextos
Some options:

* Move to a frontend job that is less chaotic. RoR jobs are relatively easy to find and some codebases are quite tidy. Plus, the framework moves slowly and there is little JS.

* Move to a backend job that uses an interesting technology, like Erlang, OCaml or Haskell. These technologies will provide some stimulation due to elegance and novelty.

* Pivot to a job in a different domain. Consider academic, industrial and national laboratories where you can leverage your coding experience.


👤 treflop
Find a new job.

My job has hard problems, chill people, and I care a lot about that we build.

We do have boring work and spaghetti code in places but to be honest, I unload all of that onto junior devs.


👤 czue
Maybe consider indie hacking? It's still software but way more exciting, more ownership, etc. And the upside if you're very successful is that you'll have free time to do anything else.

👤 zeroc8
I think there are lots of us having the same questions. I'm at a point in my life where I just can't stand it anymore (after 25 years). I'm thinking about doing something completely different for a while, even if it pays a whole lot less, hoping that this somehow rekindles the fire for software development...

👤 usernamed7
I've found over the years that doing software engineering is fun, but being a software engineer is not. Especially the song and dance of trying to get hired.

In companies there is often a lack of leadership, organization, communication, honesty, and skill. I became a software developer because I like building things in Rails, so that's what I am focusing on.

For you, I would highlight that there are other languages/frameworks out there which might help with your tooling woes - but everything else is the state of the industry.


👤 trilinearnz
It may be helpful to consider the matter from the lens of 'what is my core competency'. I had similar existential questions recently, and pursued an MBA to that end (after realising that I enjoyed analysing people behaviour in companies and thought that might translate into a management career). By the end of it, I realised that I was simply able to 'do' the job of a dev much more naturally than becoming a manager. At that stage, the problem changed from 'what do I want to do' to 'what can I actually do'.

I'm sure you are capable of switching careers and skillsets more successfully than I was, but for me, metaphorically speaking, after peering over the hedge, I came to be content with the color of the grass on my own side.


👤 VirusNewbie
>Is it time to move jobs, or time to move careers?

Split the difference and try a new stack/specialty.

I remember being burnt out and tired of all the shit and I decided to try a new stack/language and development got fun again. Then, I was able to get to company that also treated folks better. It didn't happen over night, but it really made me happier and in the long run I ended up making a lot more money.

If you can hang on for a while longer, try transitioning to a backend stack, to data engineering, to data science, to something else. Maybe even just doing full stack with a different framework at a better company.


👤 oneplane
Knee-jerk reaction: change jobs.

Slightly longer reaction: find out what the actual problem is, get more context (you got any dependants?), are you in a position to trial-and-error? Is the job the problem or is it multiperson work that is the issue?


👤 turtleyacht
Maybe this will be a balm to the soul:

Repair and remain (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41226039 - 6 days ago (250 comments)


👤 mobeigi
A break and then a job switch might be what are you are looking for. The problem is you can't usually line up a job for "in 3-6 months time" and you have to have the finances sorted ahead of time.

👤 TimJRobinson
I went through the same thing last few years. Ended up joining a venture capital firm as a technical researcher and love it.

I focus on crypto most of the time, and sometimes robotics, AI or developer tooling. I mostly talk to startups about their tech and do due diligence to make sure they know what they're doing.

I read a lot of whitepapers and go to technical discussions at conferences to know where the industry is going to see where we should be investing.


👤 29athrowaway
This is the talk you must watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxZuzDKoI0

"Pushing through friction" by Dan Na.


👤 purple-leafy
For more context, I develop on weekends and I enjoy that because I can tackle problems I find interesting. But I’m yet to find a job I enjoy that makes me feel whole.

👤 nine_zeros
I still love software but I couldn't care less about agile, design docs, promos, PIPs, management BS.

As in, I cannot care about the low value management BS that is eating my precious time on this planet.


👤 robsun
I don't think you can fix burn out with new responsibilities and challenges. At least it didn't work for me.

Before you will make any significant changes in your life I highly recommend to take long vacations. It depends how severe the burn out is. Maybe you need 2 weeks, maybe 1 month, maybe 2 months will help.


👤 bitsondatadev
Is there any market or industry that you would like to work in? Like the domain itself is interesting to work in?

👤 donatj
Hear me out. Find a back end job in a stable non-startup. The rate of tech change is so much more reasonable.

👤 euroderf
It was the stress and oft-time futility of debuggery that drove me from software development to technical communications. I could interview developers without having to walk a mile in their moccasins. I wasn't writing poetry, but I wasn't writing octal either.

👤 sparrish
That's like asking someone "What's going to be my favorite color?"

Only you can answer that.


👤 nopmat
I was surprised by the number of science grad students I knew who were into This Old House. The dream of applying your expertise in a short time frame with tangible results.

👤 Indomit
What are your hobbies?

👤 kerkeslager
I'm also a fullstack developer.

There's a ton of questions here we can't answer for you. Some places you might start:

1. Start living frugally. Most people "live up to their income". This creates the impression that you're trapped, because you have to keep making the same amount of money or more. But this isn't the case. If you're making an average fullstack developer salary you can live on a fraction of your income. That can give you a lot of options such as "take a job that pays less" or "take some unpaid time off" or in the long run simply "retire early".

2. In a similar vein, eliminate debt and any other obligatory monthly expenses you can. This especially includes housing expenses--if you can downsize to own a home outright, do that. Not having regular expenses means you don't need regular income.

3. Share your feelings with any relevant stakeholders in your life: your spouse if you're married, your kids. Any solutions you look for are going to have to include them so it makes sense to start collaborating with them on those solutions. Hint: Your boss isn't one of these people, even if they legitimately are your friend.

4. Talk to a therapist. Just as it's valuable to have input from stakeholders in your life, it's valuable to have input from outsiders who have no stake in what you do and can look at this more objectively. Additionally, if you're like me, you spent a lot of time learning about computers and science and math and other academic pursuits, and never spent any time intentionally learning emotional skills. In the same way you might seek a class organized by a teacher to learn a new programming language, you can seek out someone to learn emotional skills.

5. Try new things. Things outside your career and outside of your comfort zone. Things that are the opposite of what you're doing that you don't like--things that are unprofitable, physical, or outdoors. I think part of the problem with a lot of software folks is that they get stuck doing what they don't want because they never figure out what they do want. It may be that you don't know what you want to do because you haven't tried it yet.

I think pretty fundamentally, a lot of us got into this career because we thought it would make us happy. At this point, I simply don't believe happiness comes from a job for most people. Some people enjoy what they do for a living, but fundamentally it's the thing they're doing, not the fact that it's their job, that brings them happiness.

For me what the last few years have looked like is: stopping drinking, getting medicated for ADHD in a way that's geared toward making my life better not making me more productive (meaning, non-stimulant), diving deep into rock climbing which gets me physically active and outdoors, moving into a van (which is paid off) to remove all housing expenses, and doing fullstack development freelance so I have ample chances to take unpaid time off. I make less money, but I make more than I need. I'm working on some esoteric programming projects that have gotten me back to the things I liked about programming in the first place. I don't feel like I'm where I want to be, but at this point that feels hopeful, like I have goals I'm making progress toward.

Your answer probably doesn't look like mine, but don't be afraid to dream of something equally as outlandish-sounding if it sounds appealing; the reasons you feel like you can't do something may be less critical than you think.


👤 caust1c
Try farming. The world needs more farmers and less industrial farms.

Or medicine. More bureaucracy, but perhaps more intrinsically rewarding.


👤 motohagiography
people you like or admire, what do they do?

👤 bdw5204
Your mile may vary but I wouldn't advise looking for new jobs at the moment[0]. The current job market is a dumpster fire so recruiters and hiring managers are on their absolute worst behavior right now. If the money's good and especially if you're fully remote, I'd say just do whatever you have to do to keep the job and focus on building another source of income independently of your job. The long term goal being to eventually end your dependence upon employers. At least that's my career goal that I'm trying to work towards. If you do it that way and especially if you keep your expenses low, you can have a soft landing instead of being forced to uproot your entire life to get out.

If you've already got significant savings, you can either use the runway to launch your own startup or even just buy an already profitable business that makes enough money to pay for your living expenses.

I'm not sure I'd suggest switching to a different job if you hate all of the bullshit around corporate programming because you'll probably hate all of the bullshit around whatever other job you pivot into as well. If you own the company, you can choose to just not do all of that agile/waterfall/scrum/whatever bullshit and to build whatever you want built assuming you can make enough revenue or investor funding from it to make it financially viable.

[0]: If you truly hate your job and/or insist on looking anyway, I'd recommend looking until you burn out on job interviews and dealing with the rampant spam and fake jobs polluting the job boards. If you get an offer worth accepting before that, that means you've won the lottery. If you don't, stop your search until the market improves or you feel like trying it again. My own experience being forced into a job search in this market against my will[1] has strengthened my own resolve to get the hell out of employment so that I don't ever have to deal with job interviews ever again.

[1]: Specifically, I was laid off from a great job that I was very happy at where there was very minimal corporate bullshit to worry about because their client cancelled a project that I was supposed to be working on. The company didn't have anything else for me to do.


👤 fuzzfactor
>Tired of software

Why not hardware?


👤 dzonga
been there - only way out is to start your own company.

👤 asdf1145
agile & scrum = burn out developers