HACKER Q&A
📣 mtlynch

Fighting back against Roku's forced arbitration?


I received an email a few days ago from Roku telling me that they've updated their dispute resolution terms to require forced arbitration:

https://docs.roku.com/published/disputeresolution/en/us

The new terms are obviously skewed entirely in Roku's favor. They say that consumers can't sue Roku in court and can't participate in class-action lawsuits.

You can opt-out, a detail they conveniently omitted in the notification email, but it has to be in writing within 30 days.

It irritates me that Roku and other corporations are allowed to force millions of customers into spending an hour or so to read these new terms and send a letter in the mail.

Are there things that I can do as a consumer to fight back against this bad behavior by Roku? In the long term, I'll support candidates and federal bills that make forced arbitration illegal, but in the short term, what can I do to discourage this behavior by Roku and other companies?


  👤 jkaplowitz Accepted Answer ✓
Unfortunately, interpretations of the Federal Arbitration Act by the US Supreme Court in recent decades have made it very clear that what they're doing is legal nationwide under US law, with or without an opportunity to opt out. And it's gotten so widespread that I don't think there's a good fix short of changing the law - it's not like enough alternative vendors exist for many of the products and services that now require arbitration, so one can't just pick alternatives.

Sometimes there is a way to fight back by having a single law firm file a lot of individual arbitrations based on similar facts and circumstances, yielding an approximation of a class action lawsuit that's more annoying and potentially more expensive for the company. But Roku seems to have crafted their terms to close that workaround.

The only real way to get out from this right now, beyond leveraging any opt-out procedures you have the energy to follow to the letter, is to move to places outside the US where consumer protection laws make this illegal in the consumer context. For example, many European countries or certain Canadian provinces like Quebec. And even that wouldn't help usage that doesn't fall within the scope of the applicable consumer protection law, such as a product or service which you primarily use in a professional context.


👤 JumpCrisscross
Have you participated in a lawsuit or arbitration proceeding? I have, from both corporate and individual sides, and the one thing I can say is I'm glad I've never been named in a lawsuit. knocks on wood

If you have cash, public suits are great. You have a chance at setting precedent, get to make a PR splash and generally troll and embarass your opponent. If you don't have six+ figures of liquidity lying around, however, and your opponent does--and they know it--you're toast. They'll file for extraneous motions, launch counter-discovery: anything to rack up the legal bills. In most cases, it doesn't even advance that far. The motions and countersuits were disclosed, plaintiff's law firm asked their client for a six-figure retainer, client couldn't afford it and the issue went away. (With the client a few thousand, or tens of thousand, out of pocket or in debt, depending on whether they advanced from dicussing with counsel to hiring a litigator.)

Forced arbitration in cases of possible crimes, e.g. sexual harassment at the workplace or poisonous products, are a sham. They should be outlawed. But in cases of commercial contract disputes, they're--in my experience--a levelling agent for the little guy. The only people who seem to publicly launch missives against them are class-action attorneys (unsurprisingly, one of the most PR-savvy collections of counsel).

Maybe the middle ground is permitting a class exception to mandatory arbitration. But there is a reason large companies are removing arbitration as something you can force them into [1], largely in reaction to mass arbitration, which delivers arbitration's low-cost analogy to litigation in respect of class actions.

[1] https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/amazon-drops-arbitra...


👤 paulgb
During the Equifax debacle, I was so pissed that they tried to foist an arbitration agreement on their own victims that I offered to mass-mail opt-outs for people for free[1]. I ended up printing and mailing over 1,000 opt-outs, and they eventually backed down on the arbitration stuff (I don't take credit for that, there were a lot of others calling on them to).

If you're pissed enough, consider doing that :) The whole thing cost me probably about $50 in certified mail postage and domain registration but it was fun to stick it to them.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15207151


👤 rebeccahill
Flood there phones and emails People

https://docs.roku.com/published/disputeresolution/en/us

For legal correspondence only, please contact: Stephen Kay Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Roku, Inc. 1701 Junction Court, Suite 100, San Jose, CA 95112 generalcounsel@roku.com Phone number: 408-556-9391 Fax number: 408-364-1260

Workaround Hard Reset. Won't let you use your Internet connection unless you register your email. Which requires you agreeing to new terms. Only works if you HDMI to another Device. We have it hooked up to our Desktop Computer VIA HDMI. It is now a Giant Monitor


👤 jbear159
I bought a TCL Roku TV with this new dispute resolution binding individual arbitration class action waiver if I don't agree to it I can no longer use my TV and I refuse to agree to it so how do I get my money back for my TV ?

👤 throwaxenu
The nuttiest case I came across WRT arbitration was that Scientology has persuaded some courts that they can't hear cases against scientology filed by former members, until an arbitration has been conducted run by scientology itself. From https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-the-secret-hell-of-goin...

"However, in January 2020, Scientology convinced Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Richard Burdge Jr. that because Haney signed her exit agreement on that day in 2017 with the attorney Gary Soter and the armed security guard watching her, she was obliged by that contract not to sue the church but to submit to its own brand of internal “religious arbitration.”"

" Haney testified that she was astonished to see someone she considered one of her “abusers” (as her attorneys described her in the Status Conference Report filed in her lawsuit) to be on the panel that would supposedly judge her claims fairly ."


👤 ta1243
I've never heard of roku. I'd suggest voting with your dollar. It looks like this is some form of set-top-box system, I suggest using free software if you want freedom -- is XBMC still a thing?

👤 msward
All the streaming apps I have on my Roku TV, I also have on my Smart Samsung phone & Tablet. I was fortunate to have setup my Roku TV with OTA Free Broadcast Channels. So when I turn my Roku TV on, it defaults to Antenna input. By having my Roku TV setup to start in Antenna input, I am able to Samsung SmartView (Casting Directly to the Roku TV) from my Samsung Phone or Tablet and still watch the same streaming services as previous. I have not yet agreed to the Forced Arbitration Agreement. Wanting to wait some time, to see if this ends up a cause to bring a Class Action Case against Roku

👤 peteforde
I very briefly considered developing "channels" (apps) for Roku, but backed off quickly:

- the entire vibe of the Roku content ecosystem is a Venn diagram of "right-wing fever dream" meets shovelware

- the developer experience (language, API, tooling) is like an alt-history where ASP, XML and DRM-for-everything won

- there is a distinct two-tier class system where big players can write native executables in something C-like, but everyone else needs to use a slow, interpreted template script thing

- it's basically impossible to create something that can be discovered without pouring a lot of money into platform ads

I encourage anyone still reading to fight back by not buying Roku-enabled products.


👤 jbear159
I bought a TCL Roku TV with this new dispute resolution binding individual arbitration class action waiver if I don't agree to it I can no longer use my TV how do I get my money back for my TV cuz I don't agree with it

👤 laurihaz
Can’t opt out. I paid good money for a TV. I can’t even use Apple TV casing via Amazon Prime. Absolute bullshit!

👤 dfulmer
Why the surprise as this is what we can expect out of another woke company that’s main office is in the California Bay Area? I’m ticked that the Terms descriptions they provide are way too long and not easily understood at all. Why can’t they just speak in English in a way that customers can understand without a law degree. Idiots!